guided tour of the wave arizona

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The Wave, AZ

Private Tours and Shuttle Services to the Wave, Arizona - by Lake Powell Scenic Tours

The Wave, Arizona

Page, az - lake powell scenic tours.

If you have successfully won the coveted Wave, Arizona permit and would like a guide or shuttle service, you have come to the right place. 

Lake Powell Scenic Tours is the official tour company of thewavearizona.com - this award-winning tour company offers private tours from local, professional tour guides, ensuring that you maximize your time within Coyote Buttes North

A licensed guide will take your group on the safest, most direct route to  The Wave and beyond. Depending on your fitness level, hiking ability, and desire, your guide may be able to show you places like:

• The Second Wave
• Top-Rock Arch
• Melody Arch
• Fatali's Boneyard
• The Sand Coves
• Dinosaur tracks
• And more 

Very few places live up to the hype like the Wave, AZ. It is the real deal. People from all over the world enter the lottery with hopes of winning the coveted permit, but very few  are lucky enough to step foot inside the boundaries of Coyote Buttes North and experience the  magical cross-bedding of  Navajo Sandstone that defines this iconic formation. 

Lake Powell Scenic Tours is a fully-licensed guiding company and has received the Trip Advisor Travelers' Choice Award for 2021, 2022, 2023 (and we expect it again in 2024). 100% 5-star rated!

Lake Powell Scenic Tours features:

• Private tours - your party only
• Pick-up service from your Page area hotel/rental
• Full-guide service to The Wave and beyond
• A personalized GoPro "movie" of your experience 
• Born-and-raised local, certified, professional guides
• Travelers' Choice Award Winner

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About lake powell scenic tours, private tours to the wave.

The Wave, Arizona Tour:

• Private tours - your group only 
• Pick-up and drop-off from your Page, AZ area hotel/rental
• Fully guided or shuttle services
• Custom and personalized media package of your experience, including a GoPro movie of your day
• Local history, information, and stories
• Basic backpacks and hiking poles if needed
• 8-10 hour total tour time (subject to road conditions and travel time)

Tyler Hunter, Owner/Guide, Lake Powell Scenic Tours

Tyler Hunter is a lifelong Page / Lake Powell local. As a professional tour guide, he can provide stories and historical information like only a local can. Certified in Wilderness First Aid, CPR, and off-road safety courses, you are in good hands. Tyler has provided professional guiding services to some of the most world-renown and iconic places like Antelope Canyon, Horseshoe Bend, The Wave , Alstrom Point , Buckskin Gulch , Skylight Arch , and more. 

What you need to know

It is hard to believe, but a high percentage of those who win the lottery, never make it to The Wave. 

The road to the Wire Pass Trailhead (Wave), House Rock Valley Road, is difficult in the best of times and dangerous in the worst of times. Very rocky, often deeply rutted, and totally impassable when wet, this road presents a unique set of challenges. High clearance 4x4 vehicles are highly recommended. 

The rocky, sandy, uneven and fully exposed hiking trail also presents a challenge to many. The route is raw and unimproved. Please be prepared to hike approximately 7-8+ total miles exposed to all manner of elements - extreme heat in the summer and cold/icy in the winter. 

Private Wave Tour*

The total package! You will be picked up from your Page, AZ area hotel/rental and provided a fully-guided tour all the way to The Wave. This option includes a custom media package and personalized GoPro movie of your experience!

Groups of 1-2 people

Groups of 3-4 people, groups of 5-6 people, shuttle service*.

If you have successfully won the lottery for The Wave, but do not feel comfortable driving the often-dangerous House Rock Valley Road, relax and take a Lake Powell Scenic Tours shuttle. Your group will be picked up from your Page, AZ hotel/rental and allowed the use of basic backpacks and walking sticks.

Private Shuttle Service

Up to 6 people per private group

*Requires that you have successfully won a permit for The Wave through the Bureau of Land Management's lottery system.

We'd love to hear from you!

 You may also visit   http://www.lakepowellscenictours.com for more information about private guided tours to The Wave and other sightseeing tours around Page, AZ.  

The Wave Arizona

Page, Arizona 86040, United States

928-316-6060 - [email protected]

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• PERMIT REQUIRED

The Wave Tour

Discover the iconic beauty that awaits in the heart of the northern Arizona desert

Quick Details

• User Ages: 5 Years & Up
• Hour Glass Duration: 8 Hours
• Users Max Group Size: Up to 6 People , For larger groups, please call us to book!
• Info Requirement: BLM Permit
• Check Bubble Activity: Hiking Tours

You’ll be sent a waiver to sign along with your booking confirmation.

Prepare to be Mesmerized as You Tour The Wave in Coyote Buttes, Arizona

Visitors are limited to protect this beautiful land. You MUST obtain a BLM permit before we can take you on this tour.

Now, let’s talk about The Wave. It’s a mind-blowing sandstone wonder right on the Arizona-Utah border . We’re here to hook you up with a ride to the trailhead and a savvy guide to help you conquer the desert. 

Once you’re there, it’s all about free exploration . Get lost in the smooth curves and rolling formations. Absorb the dusty reds and brilliant blue skies – it’s pure magic. Plus, our guide is your go-to for history, plants, geology and wildlife info. Let’s make this hike unforgettable!

• Chevron down What to Bring
• Make sure to bring plenty of water, a lunch, sunglasses and a hat, and good hiking/walking shoes
• North Coyotes Buttes Permit!
• Chevron down Inclusions
• 4 WD transport to and from The Wave trailhead
• A friendly & knowledgeable guide
• 8 miles of guided hiking

NOT INCLUDED

• North Coyote Buttes visitor permit
• Lunch (Please bring your own, you’re welcome to store them in our cooler.)
• Gratuity for your guide
• Chevron down Important Info
• We provide 4WD transport to and from The Wave trailhead.
• You’ll receive 8 miles of guided hiking to The Wave and the surrounding areas of North Coyote Buttes.
• You’ll need to sign a hiking waiver after booking this tour. Click here to view the waiver.
• You need a permit to take this tour . Click here to find out how to apply for one.
• This is a challenging and strenuous tour. It’s best suited to experienced hikers with a high level of fitness and health.  7 to 12 miles round trip.
• Chevron down Add-on to Wire Pass Slot Canyon

Fill your day with as much adventure and natural beauty as possible by  adding on a visit to Wire Pass Slot Canyon.  For an additional  $150  we’ll make a very worthwhile stop on our return trip and explore its famous ravines and narrow sandstone walls.  Just let us know at the time of booking  if you would like to add on this experience.

Related Activities

• Users Up to 12 People
• Hour Glass 8 Hours
• User 5 Years & Up

Alt Wave Adventure

There are so many wave formations in our region so if you aren’t successful in securing a permit for The Wave, don’t fret! Embark on an alternative tour experience, uncover hidden treasures and create unforgettable memories with this alternative option.

• Info BLM Permit
• Users Up to 6 People

South Coyote Buttes Hiking Tour

Located near the Wave, South Coyote Buttes is a great alternative. Enjoy guided ATV rides to the trail-head then hike to some of the most stunning rock formations you’ll ever see. You MUST obtain a BLM permit before we can take you on this tour.

• Users Up to 5 People

White Pocket Hiking Tour

A seemingly Alien landscape sure to impress and overwhelm the senses. Experience something otherworldly while walking across the hexagonal rock formation with underlying streaks of red swirls and waves. Eye Candy Overload.

• Hour Glass 8-10 Hours
• User All Ages

Grand Canyon Toroweap Overlook

The ultimate Grand Canyon View point.  Peer 3000 feet (915 meters) straight down into the belly of the Grand Canyon.  You can even hear the faint menacing roar of Lava Falls Rapids down below.

• Users Up to 8 People
• Hour Glass 5 Hours , 8 Hours

Canyoneering Tours

Travel with our expert guides who have decades of experience in the canyoneering field! We’ll spend the day descending through a canyon specifically chosen to your experience level and time constraints. This tour is perfect for families!

• Our Most Popular Tour!
• Hour Glass 2.5 - 3 Hours

Peek-a-Boo Slot Canyon ATV Tour

Pack some serious fun and adventure into a few hours while you’re in Kanab! Race over sand trails in 2 or 4 person ATVs towards the breathtaking Peek-a-Boo Slot Canyon and learn about this special area from one of our experienced tour guides.  Similar to Antelope Canyon.

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Grand Staircase Discovery Tours

Scenic and backcountry tours near Page, Arizona

North Coyote Buttes

Basically unknown until the mid 1990s, Coyote Buttes has become one of the most sought-after destinations in the southwest. It’s most famous feature is The Wave in North Coyote Buttes , a fantastic landscape of bizarre formations and colorful, twisted sandstone strata.

Our tour explores The Wave in-depth, as well as other incredible areas within North Coyote Buttes…..

The hike is about 3 miles one-way (6 miles total) just to The Wave, over moderately strenuous terrain and unmarked routes in most places.

The Bureau of Land Management (BLM) considers this area to be very fragile, therefore only 64 people are allowed per day thru a permit system. You can apply online 4 months in advance thru the BLM at recreation.gov

*Permit Required  (note: you would not need to secure an extra permit for a guide, we have our own guiding permits)

Tour Time: about 7-8 hours

Cold drinks and bottled water are included. Please bring your own snacks and lunch (our providing of this service is temporarily suspended).

Cost: $175.00 per person

Call us anytime with questions or to book a tour.

Call: 928-614-4099, email:  granddiscovery89@yahoo.

South Coyote Buttes

Lesser known, but equally as beautiful as The Wave, South Coyote Buttes  displays a spectacular variety of rock formations and colors. It’s two main areas are Cottonwood Cove and Paw Hole . Access to these areas can be difficult,  especially Cottonwood Cove. Our tour explores both of these great areas, in comfort, with more time spent at Cottonwood Cove.

Only 20 people are allowed daily, and a permit would need to be secured through the BLM at the Visitor Center in Kanab, Utah, the day before. You may also apply for a permit online 4 months in advance on the BLM website .

*Permit Required (note: you would not need to secure an extra permit for a guide, we have our own guiding permits)

Tour time: about 8 hours

Cost: $200.00 per person

Current Weather

928-614-4099

[email protected]

32 S. Lake Powell Blvd.

Page, AZ 86040

Buckskin Gulch

Grand Staircase

White Pocket

The Wave is a sandstone rock formation located in Arizona, United States, near its northern border with Utah. The formation is situated on the slopes of the Coyote Buttes in the Paria Canyon-Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness of the Colorado Plateau. The area is administered by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) at the Grand Staircase-Escalante National Monument visitor center in Kanab, Utah.

The formation is well-known among hikers and photographers for its colorful, undulating forms and the difficult hike required to reach it. Due to the fragile nature of the formation and the large number of people wishing to visit it, a daily lottery system is used to dispense permits for up to 16 people and/or 4 groups (whichever comes first) two days before (visitors must apply within a geofence area encompassing the greater Kanab visitor center, Vermilian Cliffs, and Page areas). Additionally, 48 people and/or 12 groups (whichever comes first) online permits for each date are available four months in advance of a planned trip. A map and information about the hike are supplied to those who have obtained permits.

The Wave consists of intersecting U-shaped troughs that have been eroded into Navajo Sandstone of Jurassic age. The two major troughs which comprise this rock formation are 62 feet (19 m) wide by 118 feet (36 m) long and 7 feet (2 m) wide by 52 feet (16 m) long. Initially, infrequent runoff eroded these troughs along joints within the Navajo Sandstone. After their formation, the drainage basin, which fed rainwater to these troughs, shrank to the point that the runoff became insufficient to contribute to the cutting of these troughs. As a result, the troughs are now almost exclusively eroded by wind, as indicated by the orientation of erosional steps and risers cut into the sandstone along their steep walls. These erosional steps and risers are oriented relative to the predominant direction of the wind as it is now naturally funneled into and through these troughs.

The Wave exposes large-scale sets of cross-bedded eolian sandstone composed of rhythmic and cyclic alternating grainflow and windripple laminae. The rhythmic and cyclic alternating laminae represent periodic changes in the prevailing winds during the Jurassic period as large sand dunes migrated across a sandy desert. The thin ridges and ribbing seen within the Wave are the result of the differential erosion of rhythmic and cyclic alternating grainflow and windripple laminae within the Navajo Sandstone. These laminae have differing resistance to erosion as they have been differentially cemented according to variations in the grain size of the sand composing them. The soft sandstone is fragile, especially the ridges and ribbing of the Wave. As a result, visitors must walk carefully to avoid breaking the small ridges.

BLM limits access to the North Coyote Buttes Wilderness Area to just 64 permits per day. 48 of the permits are available in advance by an online lottery conducted four months before the month for which the permit is sought. The remaining 16 permits are made available by geofenced daily lottery two day's before one's intended hike. The legacy walk-in lottery has transitioned to the new Daily Lottery. While within the geofence area on a mobile device this lottery is only available by going to Recreation.gov in your browser or by installing the Recreation.gov app. Spring and autumn are the most popular times of year to visit, but the popularity of the Wave is such that the chances of obtaining a permit by either advance lottery or the day-before lottery are much less than 50% from March through November. - Wikipedia

Best Adventures Near The Wave:

FLY FISHING

Whether it's your first time fly fishing or you're a fanatic, enjoy this picturesque river with our expertly trained guide!

HORSE RIDING

Saddle up for a relaxing horse trail ride tour near  Kanab, Utah  through breathtaking  Cave Lakes Canyon.

THE WAVE TOUR

With its sweeping rock landscape and vibrant colors, The Wave hiking tour is truly a bucket list item. 

Come ROAM with us

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Paria Outpost & Outfitters

Your guides to the grand staircase-escalante & vermilion cliffs national monuments, coyote buttes, and white pockets.

• ABOUT PARIA OUTPOST

THE WAVE – NORTH COYOTE BUTTES

• SOUTH COYOTE BUTTES

WHITE POCKET

Yellow rock, sidestep canyon, vermilion cliffs, grand staircase.

• OVERNIGHT TOURS
• PHOTO WORKSHOPS
• SOAP CREEK PHOTO GALLERY
• THE WAVE – NORTH COYOTE BUTTES PHOTO GALLERY
• SOUTH COYOTE BUTTES PHOTO GALLERY
• WHITE POCKET PHOTO GALLERY
• YELLOW ROCK PHOTO GALLERY
• SIDESTEP CANYON PHOTO GALLERY
• VERMILION CLIFFS PHOTO GALLERY
• GRAND STAIRCASE PHOTO GALLERY
• PHOTOGRAPHY WORKSHOPS GALLERY

VISIT THE MOST POPULAR DESTINATION IN THE ENTIRE AREA!

THE WAVE – NORTH COYOTE BUTTES TOURS

The most popular, sought after visual treasure in the entire Vermilion Cliffs-Grand Staircase Monuments . Everybody wants to see The Wave in North Coyote Buttes . And, yes we’d have to say it’s good. 

There’s also more to see in the North Coyote Buttes area, and we’ll take you to all the best stops, showing you the best of what the North Buttes has to offer. Our guides will take you to all the best photo destinations for world class photography.

It is at least a 6 mile hike with tall hills, sand, and uneven slick rock to negotiate. You must be in good physical shape to attempt this.

If you’re in an RV or the roads are bad but feel confident to do it yourself, we can provide a shuttle to the trailhead and back for $150 per group, though there are times the road is completely impassable and even we can’t do it.

Everyone remembers their day at The Wave . Our guides will make it even more memorable, sharing local knowledge and guiding you to all the best places to see and photograph in the North Coyote Buttes .

Only 20 people are allowed in the North and South Coyote Buttes per day. If you have not obtained one of the 10 permits previously available online, you can go to the BLM visitor center in Kanab, Utah for the famous North Coyote Buttes Wave Lottery at 9 a.m. There will be a lot of competition for the 10 permits that are issued for the next day.

Hiking The Wave: Trail Basics

Access to The Wave is from the Wire Pass Trailhead located in the North Coyote Buttes permit area of the Vermilion Cliffs National Monument . The moderate 6-mile hike consists primarily of sand and red rock. Part of the trail is cross-country, so you should be prepared for potentially harsh desert conditions, including fierce winds, blowing sand, and little shade.

• Trail Type:  Out-and-back
• Length:  6 miles
• Elevation Change:  +/- 400 feet
• Dogs Allowed:  Yes, for an additional $7/per dog/per day (They must be under your control at all times and you are required to pack out your waste)
• Best Season:  Spring and Fall (best weather)
• Time:  All day tour, 6 hrs minimum round trip hike
• Permit Required:  YES – see Permit Section below
• Water Availability:  None. Must carry own water – up to 4 L per person

Advance Online Lottery for The Wave

Coyote buttes north lottery schedule.

IMPORTANT: The North Coyote Buttes requires a special permit from the B.L.M. You must obtain your own permit before reserving with us for this area. SEE THE PERMIT INFORMATION BELOW.

$200 + TAX per person ($220 TOTAL)

To book a guided photography, scenic, adventure, or hiking tour, photography workshop, overnight camp out, or make a reservation, please call or email us directly so that we can discuss your personal itinerary, in order to customize to your emphasis, interests and ability.

Call us at  (928) 691-1047 or email [email protected]

IMPORTANT RESERVATIONS MUST CHECK IN WITH US 24-HOURS BEFORE THE DATE OF THE TOUR.

THE WAVE – NORTH COYOTE BUTTES PHOTO GALLERY

Memory making moments, tour details.

• You can go to the BLM Visitor Center on highway 89 in Kanab, Utah to try for the ten available permits for the next day at ten a.m.
• Driving Times: It is a 30 minute drive from the Outpost to the Wave trailhead.
• At least a six mile hike. For good hikers only.
• Usually 2 hours hiking each way, plan on a little more time to see and photograph other locations in the area.
• When extremely hot must be hiking at sunrise.
• All daytime and sunset tours are at least 8-9 hours.
• We supply lunch, water and cold drinks.
• You must carry water and lunch.
• Campouts and photo workshops are 24 hours.
• Available all year dependent upon weather and especially road conditions.
• PERMIT IS REQUIRED
• Price (same for all tours)
• Departure Times: Though somewhat flexible, departure times vary with the weather and the length of the day through the year. In spring we generally depart at 8 a.m., but when it gets really hot we recommend leaving by at least 7 a.m. or even earlier.
• Meeting Point: All our tours depart from the Paria Outpost , which is located directly on Highway 89 at mile 21 in Utah. GPS COORDINATES : 37.1075° N, 111.9109° W
• We are a thirty minute drive from Page, Arizona and a ten minute drive from Big Water, Utah. We are forty-five minutes from Kanab, Utah, and aa little over two hours from Bryce Canyon and Zion National Parks. We are located right on the highway and have a big sign out front.
• What to bring: You bring a backpack to carry lunch and water, sunscreen, and your camera.

Where do the tours start? All tours start at the Paria Outpost on Highway 89 and Paria River , thirty minutes from Page, Arizona and forty five minutes from Kanab, Utah.

What should I bring? Enclosed hiking shoes, sunscreen, hat, backpack. Hiking poles if you use them. Lunch, water, and cold drinks are included.

Do I need a permit? Only in the Coyote Buttes, nowhere else is a permitted area.

How many in group size? Group size maximum is 5 clients per guide , with 10 clients and 2 guides max. We reserve the right to fill groups. If guests want “private tour” (a car and guide to themselves) they must pay for 4 seats 175×4=$700  in the car. We also have a 2 person minimum price, so if solo, cost is $350 minimum.

What time do we start? Starting times are somewhat flexible according to the heat factor as well as your preference. We can discuss this when you write or call to check in twenty-four hours or so before the tour.

Are we located in Big Water? Our mailing address is in Big Water but our business is located ten minutes or so farther down the highway toward Kanab, Utah, just across the Paria River,

How do I pay? Though we don’t take money upfront for reservations, we do not accept credit cards. We always accept cash and personal checks are fine, if from America.

In an effort to be as user-friendly as possible we do not take money up front for reservations. We put your name on our calendar and count on you to show up. Weather can be unpredictable and other factors can change your itinerary and we do not want your money, if we cannot do your tour.

Bureau of Land Management – Coyote Buttes Permits Link to apply for permits

Both the North and South Coyote Buttes are limited to twenty visitors per day.

10 permits are available to try for to enter each area per day online, 4 months ahead of time for the North Coyote Buttes Wave area, and three months ahead of time for the South Coyote Buttes.

10 permits for each area are also available to try for at the BLM Visitor Center on Highway 89 in Kanab, Utah.

The Wave lottery is at 9 a.m. and the South Coyote Buttes lottery opens at 10 a.m.

Permits issued are for the next or coming day. If you are lucky enough to obtain a North Coyote Buttes Wave permit, we can take you on a great, comprehensive tour of the North Coyote Buttes, or we can give you a shuttle to the trailhead if you feel confident to do it yourself.

TESTIMONIALS

EXCELLENT GUIDE! Our trip to the Wave had been great with Dallas! He was experience and know where to bring us to see the beautiful views. We went to the boneyard, dinosaur tracks and the 2nd Wave! We had enough time to spend at The Wave and Dallas had never rush us at any points! Btw, avocado sandwich made by Susan was delicious! You can’t go wrong with Dallas and Paria Outpost! Highly recommended!

MenglembuMag

Looking for more adventure have another day to spend with us.

Let us take you through the heart of the VERMILION CLIFFS out to the colorful, extremely photogenic formations of the remote, largely unvisited Soap Creek. A really great tour.

We can show you more of the remote part of the VERMILION CLIFFS , such as a hike through Pinnacle Valley, out to Middle Reservoir, the “Cowboy Hat” formation, Double Barrel Arch or see Petroglyph panels and ruins as well.

Take another day to visit the increasingly famous WHITE POCKET , an other-worldly formation of brain rocks and colors. World Class and World-Famous photography. Easy hiking. images.

If you’re a good hiker hike the three miles or so to see largely unvisited SIDESTEP CANYON , a giant green-colored valley full of literally hundreds of balanced rocks, from 3 feet tall to 150 feet tall. Great for viewing a spectacular example of unique geology and excellent photographic opportunities.

Again, if you are a good hiker, make the short but somewhat steep climb up to YELLOW ROCK , for lovely, stunning colors and great views of the Cockscomb area.mages.

NORTH COYOTE BUTTES & SOUTH COYOTE BUTTES

The famous NORTH COYOTE BUTTES or SOUTH COYOTE BUTTES . IF you can be in Kanab, Utah at 9 a.m., try the North Coyote Buttes  Wave Lottery at the Kanab BLM visitor Center on Highway 89, or be there at 10 a.m. to try for a permit to the South Coyote Buttes, which, though less known, is easily as good or perhaps even better than the famous “Wave” that everyone wants. It’s easier to get this permit as well. However, only ten permits are available for each area per day at the Visitor Center. Permits are issued for the next day.

If you don’t want to hike much we can take you on a mostly DRIVING TOUR OF THE GRAND STAIRCASE , the COTTONWOOD CANYON ROAD and the SMOKEY MOUNTAIN ROAD are unbelievably eye-catching and photogenic, with lots of short stops and short hikes.mages.

FREE CAMPING AND RV PARKING FOR OUR CLIENTS AT PARIA OUTPOST. GREAT PORCH & RESTROOMS.

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The Wave Arizona

Private guided tours.

Award winning official tour company of TheWaveArizona.com

We believe that every traveler deserves an exceptional experience. For many, winning the Wave lottery is a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.  That's why we go above and beyond to ensure that our tours are informative, engaging, and fun, allowing you to maximize this incredible opportunity*.

Why choose our private tour? 

• Pick up service from your Page, AZ area hotel/rental
• Private tour - your group only  - up to 6 people
• Packs and walking sticks if needed
• Custom GoPro Movie and media package of your experience
• Born and raised local guides
• Unlock all the "extras" in the permit area - Melody Arch, Top Rock Arch, Dinosaur Tracks, The Alcove and more!
• Tripadvisor Travelers' Choice Award winner (2021, 2022, 2023)

The Wave AZ Private Tour Prices:

• $400 total for groups of 1-2
• $500 total for groups of 3-4
• $600 total for groups of 5-6

* Must already have permit for The Wave - we do not provide these for you!

Don't want a guide, but need shuttle service? -  Click Here

What to expect going to the Wave

What to expect when going on a guided tour to the Wave, Arizona with Lake Powell Scenic Tours.

Discover what our happy customers have to say!

Photo gallery, we felt like we were alone in the world we recommend 100%.

Krys2209 - Tripadvisor

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Hire a Guide

Why hire a guide.

What if we told you that most people who hike to The Wave end up missing out on the exquisite beauty and singular geology of Coyote Buttes North, because they’re so focused on not getting lost on the way to The Wave? That would be the ultimate case of not seeing the forest for the trees, right? Getting a permit to hike The Wave is a highly-coveted, once-in-a-lifetime experience. So how do you ensure that you make the most of it? By hiring a guide!

There is no Established Trail!

If you were fortunate enough to score a permit for The Wave, one of the first things you learn is that there is no “established” trail to The Wave. Even though the BLM supplies a detailed map of the hiking route to permit holders, basic map reading and route-finding skills are a definite plus. There are instances every year of people getting so hopelessly lost that they never see The Wave, or worse, require a costly search and rescue operation to get them back to safety, and civilization. Then there’s the matter of whether the House Rock Valley Road to the Wire Pass Trailhead is even passable at the time of your hike. Winter snowstorms and summer flash floods can turn the normally hard, compacted dirt road to sticky, wet clay, which has mired many a rental car over the years. Who needs all those variables to ruin what is likely to be your one and only chance to see The Wave?

Kanab Tour Company

There are over a dozen tour outfitters authorized by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) to conduct tours to Coyote Buttes North and its crown jewel, The Wave. Our preferred tour partner is Kanab Tour Company. 

The reality is that with so many people trying for a permit to the Wave the odds are that you will not get one. Let us customize a tour that shows off the other little known formations in the area!

Tour Operators

These trained professionals can eliminate the guesswork of hiking to The Wave . They’ll help you take quality photos by guiding you to the best areas of Coyote Buttes North at the times of day that lend optimal light and shadow play on the rock formations, such as:

The “Second” Wave

The Boneyard 

Top Rock and Top Rock Arch

North and South TeePees

The Dinosaur Dance Floor

Melody Arch

Hourglass Arch

Dick’s Arch

With Kanab Tour Company, you’ll find a clean, comfortable fleet of late-model, high-clearance vehicles, and local driver/guides with the experience and knowledge to safely pilot them. They can power through deep mud and sand, and spider-crawl over boulders, ruts, and other obstacles – both expected and unexpected – that might pop up on the journey. On the trail, they’ll share insight and expertise on the geology and human history of the area that you may miss out on by going unaccompanied

If you were unable to secure permits for The Wave and Coyote Buttes North, these companies can suggest a myriad of alternate sites that are just as incredible as The Wave (some, dare we say it, even moreso!), and don’t require a permit. Remember, they are experts on the area of the American Southwest known as The Grand Circle and their knowledge and enthusiasm can make a huge difference in the quality of your vacation, your photos, and your memories!

Companies with the necessary clearance from the BLM (Bureau of Land Management) to guide tours to The Wave are:

Action Photo Tours — www.actionphototours.com — 208-789-5899

• American West Scenic Adventures — www.utahguidedtours.com —  435-767-0220

Dreamland Safari Tours — www.dreamlandtours.net —  435-644-5506

Grand Circle Tours — www.vermilioncliffs.net —  928-691-0166

Grand Staircase Discovery Tours — www.grandstaircasediscoverytours.com —  928-614-4099

Kanab Tour Company — www.kanabtourcompany.com —  435-644-5525

Kanab Western Adventures — www.kanabwesternadventures.com — 435-690-0220

Coral Cliffs Tours of Kanab — www.cctoursandtownhomes.com — 435-899-0697

Paria Outpost & Outfitters — www.paria.com —  928-691-1047

ROAM Outdoor Adventures — www.roam-outdoor.com — 435-319-0472‬

Seeking Treasure Adventures — www.seekingtreasureadventures.com —  435-689-2182

Antelope Canyon Tours — www.antelopecanyon.com — 928-645-9102

Lake Powell Scenic Tours — www.lakepowellscenictours.com — 928-316-6060

Adventure Tours of Kanab — 435-689-2029

Peek-A-Boo Slot Canyon Tours — www.peekaboo-slot-canyon-tours.com — 435-414-9793

Some outfitters offer round-trip transport from Page, Arizona, Kanab, Utah and other gateway cities. Others require that you meet them at their headquarters. Be sure you establish your tour’s meeting place, what time zone they’re operating on, and convenience to where you’re staying, before committing to use their services. Also, be aware that utilizing a guided tour to The Wave does not exempt you from the requirement to get a Wave Permit. You still need to get one. Some tour companies may apply on your behalf as part of a booked excursion, with contingency tour locations for if a permit is not awarded.

While you wait for your permit why not take a look at some other tours in the area.

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Here’s How To Visit The Wave In Coyote Buttes For A Perfect Photo

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In the late-1980s, a few of the more popular weekend trips for college students at the University of Arizona in Tucson was to road trip to either the Grand Canyon or the Coyote Buttes. I did both, but sadly, the long-haired, fanny-pack-wearing me of 1987 was in it for nature and the hike — not owning a camera, I did not take one single photograph, but the impact of my visits remains to this day. Especially to The Wave.

Filip Fuxa / Shutterstock

The Wave In Coyote Buttes

Not to be too dramatic here, but The Wave is nature’s Van Gogh. The gentle brush strokes sweep along the rough sandstone, creating one of the most unique visual experiences on Earth.

The U-shaped clusters are called troughs, and it’s believed they began as sand dunes that compacted and turned into sandstone some 200 million years ago. The “Waves” were then carved out thanks to run-off from streams and floods. As The Wave’s official website puts it, “it was one of those rare instances when the elements were in the right place at the right time together, and the results are absolutely exquisite.”

Pung / Shutterstock

Located near the northern Arizona border with Utah, Coyote Buttes is a good seven-hour drive north from Tucson and five hours from both Phoenix and Las Vegas. The closest town is called Kanub , in Utah, where you can find plenty of amenities.

The Wave is located in what is called Coyote Buttes North. From Kanub, you’ll need to find House Rock Valley Road (HRVR), which is a dirt road that connects US89 to US89A east of Jacob Lake, Arizona. Make sure you are clear on your directions before heading out.

Marisa Estivill / Shutterstock

How Do You Hike The Wave

This is very important. The Bureau of Land Management dictates that everyone must have a permit to visit Coyote Buttes, and the BLM only issues 20 permits per day. This means a trip to the Wave cannot be a spur-of-the-moment idea, as it was in 1987. And there are no super-secret ways to acquire these much sought after permits.

Pre-planning is key, and the process is simple. You must apply for potential visit dates four months in advance.

This process is pretty straightforward. Online, you will be applying for dates four months out. Make sure you follow the directions. You’ll be offered three date choices. Random drawings for the permits take place on the first of each month, and those selected will be notified by email.

Sean Xu / Shutterstock

If you wish, you can apply for a permit in person for the following day. This takes place at the Kanab Center first thing in the morning on any day during peak season. During the winter, the Kanab Center is closed on weekends.

The Wave AZ suggests applying online, noting “The hardest part about hiking the Wave is getting the permit. Each day hundreds of people will show up, and thousands of people will apply for just 20 daily permits. Ask the people in the room with you and you will hear stories about flying to the United States and staying in Kanab for weeks just to apply each morning at the visitor center. Most will leave empty handed.”

Once you get your lucky permit, the fun can begin. The hike to The Wave is a six-mile loop, but know there is no specific trail, so you’ll need a map and compass or GPS. There are no bathrooms or water sources along the way, so be prepared. The hike itself is not physically demanding, but the conditions due to The Wave’s remote nature need to be considered. The area is shadeless, has deep sandy areas, and is prone to flash floods.

Ruslan Kalnitsky / Shutterstock

How To Get A Great Photo

Due to the Arizona heat and snowfall during summer and winter, visiting in the spring and fall is advisable — just be sure to check the weather forecast for rain. But because the summer is less traveled, permits can be more available, so make sure you weigh all your options.

And of course, avoid being the 1987 me and bring a camera. Taking the perfect picture of The Wave is imperative. There are three openings in the rocks from the north, the east, and the southwest, all of which have amazing shots, especially in the morning light.

Vyshnivskyy / Shutterstock

Know Before You Go

It cannot be overstated: Visiting The Wave is not easy. Make sure you follow the directions regarding permit requests and plan accordingly. The beauty and otherworldliness of The Wave are worth the effort, but just make sure you are overly prepared due to the nature of the rugged landscape and limited access to it.

Further Reading:

• The Best Outdoor Gifts Of 2020
• 9 Gorgeous Lakes To Explore In Arizona
• Driving Route 66 In Arizona
• 9 Things You Must Know Before Hiking Devil’s Bridge In Sedona

Jordan worked at KSDK from 1995 to 2020 and has produced every show from news to specials during his tenure, including creating Show Me St. Louis, The Cardinal Nation Show, and the Rams Tailgate Show. Jordan has won four regional Emmy awards and two Edward R. Murrow awards for journalistic excellence. Additionally, Jordan runs a local blog focusing on the responsible drinking community of St. Louis, called Drink314 .

Jordan has been married for 23 years and is the father of two children. He is an avid biker and snowboarder. He collects baseball cards, old toys, and tacky salt n’ pepper shakers. He has an incredible and vast knowledge of useless information and is the grandson of a former Cleveland bootlegger.

• Photograph the iconic “Wave” in addition to many other hidden gems in this unique landscape (including spots where other outfitters won't take you).  There is so much more here besides just the Wave!
• We will take you to different areas at the right time of day for the best photography.  We know how the light changes month by month and hour by hour.
• Leave the difficult route finding to us and maximize your photography time.  Professional photo instruction and critique included on all trips.
• Small group size capped at 5 people to ensure personalized instruction and individualized attention.
• If you already have permits, you'll set to go.  If not, refer to the permits section below.  If you're not successful at the walk-in lottery, we'll go to another destination like White Pocket.
• Permits are required to access the Wave and must be obtained via lottery. All clients must procure their own permits. Click Here to learn more about permits. As commercial guides, we have our own permits for Coyote Buttes North. Your instructor will not count against the quota on your personal permit.
• To apply for the online lottery, simply visit Recreation.Gov and fill out the required information. You will need to fill this out 3-4 months before your desired date. For example, if you wanted to visit in August, you would submit the lottery application anytime between April 1 and April 30. You would be notified on May 1 if your lottery application was successful or not.
• The other option is the Daily Lottery.  You can apply for a daily permit two days in advance of your trip date via Recreation.Gov .  In order to apply, you must use a mobile device and be within the geofenced perimeter of the greater Kanab, UT and Page, AZ area.  Permit winners are required to pick-up their permits in-person the day before the hike in either Kanab, UT or Page, AZ.
• With the Daily Lottery having moved to Recreation.Gov, we will not be able to attend the walk-in lottery for clients.
• Please note:  Permits are NOT included when you book a tour with us. You still have to acquire your own permit before the tour via the advanced lottery or last-minute lottery systems.

Trip Details

• Tour Length:  8-9 hours
• Drive Time:  One hour from Kanab with 45 mins on pavement and 15 mins on rough roads. If it has been raining, we will have to go in via the southern route which will add up to 45 mins extra drive time.
• Time Spent on Location:  Approx 6 hours with around 3 hours of hiking time.
• Tour Departure Time: Please see the time listed on your booking since the times vary throughout the year. Please arrive around 10 mins early to load your gear and finish the check-in process. The return time is approximately 8-9 hours after the departure time. Note that we operate on Utah time which is one hour ahead of Las Vegas. During the months of Daylight Savings (approx mid-March through early Nov), Utah is also one hour ahead of Arizona. Please take this into consideration if traveling from out of state.
• Tour Pricing: Please click on the Book Now button for the latest pricing. Note that most of our tours require a 2-person minimum. Single individuals can always go, but may need to pay the 2-person rate if nobody else decides to join.
• Tour Meetup Location: You will meet at our office in Kanab, UT. The address will be given in your confirmation email. This is a safe place to park your vehicle and you can leave any valuables inside. Once you arrive, you'll load your gear and sign a liability waiver. Las Vegas is the closest major airport to Kanab. There is no public transportation to Kanab, so you’ll need your own rental car or private vehicle. We recommend that you stay in a hotel in Kanab the evening of your tour. There are many good hotels in the area like Hampton Inn, Holiday Inn Express, Comfort Inn & Suites, and the Canyons Botique.
• Areas: Where we go will depend on client fitness, photography goals, and current conditions.  Your instructor will determine that when you meet up and we'll structure the trip accordingly.  We'll get you to the best spots and ensure your safety and enjoyment.

More Trip Details....

• Tour Meetup Outside of Kanab: We occasionally get requests from folks coming from Page, AZ. Rather than meet in Kanab, we can meet you at the intersection of Highway 89 and House Rock Valley Road. Turn south onto House Rock Valley Road and park in the parking area at the bottom of the hill. Expect at least a 45min drive from Page, AZ. Google Maps Link . If you want us to pick you up here, PLEASE CONTACT US AHEAD OF TIME TO MAKE ARRANGEMENTS. We will come by approx. 45-60 mins after the tour departure time (note that this is Utah Time, not Arizona Time). Look for the vehicle marked as Action Photo Tours.
• Weather Conditions: Getting to Wire Pass Trailhead can be difficult if it has been raining recently and the road is impassable. We have 4WD and can usually get out there. But occasionally the mud is too deep even for 4WD. Should that happen, we'll visit a different location like White Pocket. Safety is always our top priority. Note that we cannot offer refunds due to weather unless we cannot go out at all. Don’t despise inclement weather – that is often when you get the most dramatic photos! Just make sure you dress and prepare adequately for the weather.
• Hiking / Fitness : Even though it’s only 3.5 miles each way to the Wave, it’s still a tough hike. You’ll be going through sand and over uneven rock. Most of the hike is cross-country (i.e. no trail) and it can be hot and exposed during the summer months. Expect anywhere from 1-2 hours hiking time each way. There are many other great places around the Wave that we love to show our clients. We’ll go to some of the spots if the group is feeling up to it. The sights on Top Rock require very steep hiking and mild scrambling. We can visit these places only if the group is capable of it. If we visit some extra spots, expect a 9-10 mile round trip hike. All participants should ensure their fitness level is adequate for this trip.

More Trip Details

• Food/Water: We do not provide food on our outings. All participants should bring their own lunch for the hike. For water, you’ll need at least one gallon (4 liters) per person during the warmer months. Don’t underestimate how much water you’ll need out here! During the cooler months, 2 liters per person is adequate.
• What to Wear: You should check the weather forecast prior to coming on the trip (search for Page, AZ on Weather.com). If it’s going to be hot, wear light-colored clothing and a hat. If the temperatures are cold, bring some warm layers and long pants. Don’t forget sunglasses and sunscreen. If it’s very cold and or windy, don’t forget a warm hat and some gloves. If rain or snow is in the forecast, bring a rain jacket. We recommend wearing sturdy footwear in North Coyote Buttes due to the uneven terrain and sand.
• Restroom Facilities: There are restroom facilities at the Wire Pass Trailhead. If you need to use the restroom during the hike, we will have toilet paper and hand sanitizer available. You can dig a hole back behind a bush to do your business.
• Cell Phones: Bring your cell phone along! They are great for capturing candid images. Plus, there are a few areas where you get cell signal in North Coyote. Note that cell service is limited during the drive. There are USB ports in our vehicles so bring a charging cable if you need one.
• Group Size: Our groups will never exceed 5 people per instructor. We like to keep our photo tours small so we can give adequate individual attention. For those photographers that feel more independent, we will allow you to wander away from the group and explore on your own within reasonable limits.
• Instructors:   Due to scheduling complexities, we often don't know which instructor will accompany your group until a day or two prior.  If you want a specific instructor, then please Contact Us to make your request. Although we'll do our best to make it happen, please note that there are no guarantees.
• Safety: Our guides are trained in CPR/First-Aid. All 4WD vehicles are equipped with extraction equipment and a first-aid kit. We carry a satellite beacon with us in case of emergencies outside of cell range.

Camera Gear

• Camera Gear: A wide angle zoom lens is most useful at North Coyote (equivalent 16-35 on a full-frame camera or 10-22mm on a crop sensor). There are opportunities for mid-range, telephoto, and macro shots so you can bring any of those lenses if you like - just ensure your pack isn’t too heavy. It’s up to you if you want to hike with a tripod. You will get better results if you have a tripod. However, you can hand-hold almost everything out here since we’ll be there during the middle of the day. For filters, a circular polarizer can come in handy as long as it’s not a clear, blue-sky day. A neutral density filter can be nice to smooth out rough water or create long exposures for fast moving clouds. Don’t forget extra batteries, memory cards, and cleaning supplies. Please contact us if you’d like to rent any camera gear for your outing.
• Cancellation/Re-Scheduling: Please see our Terms and Conditions .

Need more information?

Please see our Frequently Asked Questions

Trusted by Over 800 Reviews

Need more information, contact us, 435-767-0222, info@actionphototours.com.

Buckskin Gulch Guided Tours

4 Guided Tours of The Buckskin Gulch.

White Pocket Guided Tour

Amazing tours of The White Pocket.

Coyote Buttes South Guided Tour

Tours of The Coyote Buttes South area.

Coyote Buttes North Guided Tour

Tours of The Coyote Buttes North area.

The Tee Pees Guided Tour

Fantastic tours of The Tee Pees.

Guided Tours of The Vermilion Cliffs

Guided Tours of The Vermilion Cliffs National Monument.

Hiked Buckskin Gulch with Grand Circle Tours. Owner Kyle was most accommodating to our many questions. Our guide Angie was so informative and tailored the hike to our desires and skills. We learned so much, had an incredible hike and saw amazing natural rock formations.

We booked a tour to White Pockets from Page, Arizona with Grand Circle Tours. Angie is a great guide. She was very organized in the logistics of the tour, and made sure everyone was safe and comfortable. She was enthusiastic and knowledgeable, and flexible with the schedule.

The famous TeePees of Vermilion Cliffs. Amazing views! Breathtaking experience! Angie was so accommodating to our group and was a wealth of knowledge. An experience we won’t forget!

Grand Circle Tours - Vermilion Cliffs

Grand Circle Tours is pleased to offer exciting and safe small group hiking and photography tours to The Vermilion Cliffs, including The Wave, Buckskin Gulch, Coyote Buttes North, Coyote Buttes South, White Pocket, and The Tee Pees. For tours of the Grand Staircase-Escalante Monument, Grand Canyon, Bryce Canyon and St. George area please call or visit our other website GrandCircleTours.net for 7 additional tours.

The outstanding scenery, desert wildlife, colorful history, and opportunities for primitive recreation of Vermilion Cliffs will remain free of man's influence and be protected for future generations by the Bureau of Land Management, an agency of the U.S. Department of the Interior. Its 112,500 acres beckon adventurers who yearn for solitude, scenic splendor, and the chance to explore one of the most beautiful ecological formations in the world. The Cliffs are located in the heart of the Colorado Plateau. Nowhere will you find a comparable concentration of such varied geologic phenomena. There is more sandstone in this area than anywhere on earth, making it the number one choice for landscape photographers.

Tours to White Pocket are primarily vehicle-based, while the Coyote Buttes, Teepees, Buckskin Gulch, and Wire Pass Canyon are hiking trips.

The hikes to Buckskin Gulch, Coyote Buttes, and The Wave typically last 7 to 8 hours in total. We provide bottled water and snacks during the journey, but you can also bring your Camelback, personal food and anything else you want to bring for the day.

Grand Circle Tours is a company licensed by the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) and has operated locally for over 20 years with safe, enclosed vehicles and fully insured guides. Our number one goal is always safety and providing an unforgettable day of nature and photography. Each of our trips will be small groups to ensure a personal experience. We currently offer VIP custom trips to any of the areas mentioned on our site. These are available upon request. Vermilion Cliffs casts a spell, not unlike Sedona with astounding views of golden and red sandstone known throughout the Colorado Plateau. It’s a powerful experience not to be missed. Don’t forget to slow down and enjoy! Thanks for your consideration.

Book your Dream Adventure Now!

Grand Circle Tours offers exclusive hiking tours of The Vermilion Cliffs National Monument.

or Call +1 928-691-0166

This is an all-day canyon hike with the option to venture out of the wash and onto rock formations that rival The Wave and White Pockets. Tour Details ->

This section of Buckskin is the right choice if you're looking for slot canyons with excellent light for photography. Tour Details ->

This tour requires navigating down into the Gulch revealing views of White Pockets, North & South Coyote Buttes, and large parts of the Buckskin itself. Tour Details ->

This is a combined hike to both the Wire Pass and Buckskin trailheads, providing an epic day of desert slot canyon hiking. Tour Details ->

The White Pocket guided tour in the Vermilion Cliffs National Monument is the go-to spot for the serious photographer. Tour Details ->

This tour requires a much shorter hike than the North tour and is considerably more varied from a photographer’s point of view. Tour Details ->

The Wave, located in the Coyote Buttes North tour, is a world-famous destination. Permit required. Tour Details ->

Hiking to the Teepee formation is an excellent hike in spring, fall, and winter. Tour Details ->

11 Additional Tours at GreaterZionTours.net

Visit our other website, GreaterZionTours.net, for tours of Zion National Park.

7 Additional Tours at GrandCircleTours.net

Visit our other website, GrandCircleTours.net, for additional tours and different locations.

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Coyote Buttes North Advanced Lottery (The Wave)

Coyote Buttes North is just a small part of the 112,500-acre Paria Canyon-Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness, but has some of the most visually striking geologic sandstone formations in the world, including The Wave.

Coyote Buttes North Permit Area is within a backcountry, undeveloped wilderness area and does not contain any developed trails or facilities. Permit-holders are given a route description, which includes a route map, photo guide and GPS coordinates along the suggested route to the Wave. The hike to the Wave is a physically demanding 6.4 mile round-trip hike. Permit-holders should be in good physical condition and be comfortable navigating in undeveloped areas.

The road that accesses the permit area is unpaved and minimally maintained. Most of the time, it is possible to reach the trailhead in a two-wheel-drive, high-clearance vehicle. However, four-wheel-drive, high-clearance vehicles may be required when the road is wet. During the rainy season and the winter, the road may become impassable for all vehicles, even those with four-wheel drive.

Click here to learn more.

Permit & Season Information

This permit is required to visit the Coyote Buttes North permit area, which features “The Wave.” The area permits day-use only (no overnight). Wishful permit holders may enter the lottery at any time during a calendar month. Although they are entering that calendar month, they are applying for a permit for the calendar month four months ahead. Application fees for all applicants will be charged at time of application. Following the application process two email confirmations will be sent. The first will be the application receipt of payment. The second will confirm permit application information. The lottery is run on the first of the next month at 9:00am and applicants are notified (immediately following the lottery) via email, whether they were selected or not. Permit winners must log back in to confirm the winning permit, complete any remaining information and submit payment by the 15th of the month or forfeit the permit.  Each individual may submit only one application per lottery.

Lottery Information

You may enter the lottery at any time during a calendar month for a permit during the fourth month ahead. You apply for up to three trip dates per application and will be authorized one if you are successful. Each individual may submit only one application per lottery. Applicants must apply using their legal name and may be required to show a government issued identification card that matches the lottery application. There is no age limit to apply, but there must be adult accompaniment for the hike. Multiple applications to the lottery by the same individual will be cancelled without refund. Individuals cannot concurrently hold more than one permit per permit area. The lottery runs on the first day of the next month at 9 am MDT and applicants are notified of their outcome via email. The permit will be mailed out 4 to 6 weeks following the lottery by Vermilion Cliffs National Monument. Selling or transferring permits is prohibited, will invalidate the permit, and may result in citation

How Does the Quota Work for this Permit?

The quota for this permit is measured in persons and/or groups visiting the area per day. A daily maximum of 64 people are permitted to visit Coyote Buttes North.

• 48 people and/or 12 groups (whichever comes first) are awarded through the online lottery system.
• The other 16 people and/or 4 groups (whichever comes first) are awarded through the  Daily Lottery , a separate process than this online lottery. 
• The maximum group size is 6 people.
• Everyone, regardless of age, must be included in the permit. This includes infants that are not walking.
• Dogs do not count against the quota, but must be included on the permit and also require a fee. This process occurs during the confirmation of a successful lottery application.

Need to Know

Permit Information

• Permits are non-refundable.  No Rainchecks .
• ​​​​​​​Each individual may submit only one application per lottery. 
• Cannot concurrently hold more than one permit for a permit area.  
• Becoming an alternate permit holder prevents one from applying for their own permit.
• Permits are valid only in the Coyote Buttes North permit area for the group size and date specified. They are not valid for other permit areas such as Coyote Buttes South or Paria Canyon Overnight.
• Violators of group size may be cited if limit is exceeded. Joining with those on a separate permit to exceed 6 is prohibited.
• If non-commercial users obtain a permit and opt to retain an authorized outfitter and guide service, the guide will not count against the group size limit or the total visitor limit for the given day. Parties limited to one guide each.
• Authorized commercial operators may also reserve permits for trips they lead. They compete equally with non-commercial users. If a guide service obtains a permit, the guide will count against the group size.

Safety is your responsibility!

• Permits are issued for every day of the year, but changing conditions mean that access is not always safe or possible. Before applying, consider what the weather and road conditions are likely to be.  
• ​​​​​​​Permits cannot be rescheduled, even when conditions are poor. If you receive a permit for a day with unsafe conditions, you must choose whether or not to use the permit. Be prepared to modify or cancel plans. Your safety is your responsibility. 
• Extreme heat and lack of shade between May and September, along with the absence of drinking water, have led to fatalities in this permit area. During the rainy season, heavy rainfall can cause extreme flash flooding. This can lead to impassable roads and dangerous hiking conditions. Winter visits may involve hiking on ice-covered sandstone and exposure to cold.
• There are no trails in the Coyote Buttes North permit area. Permit holders are offered an orientation and a route description, but the route itself is unmarked. Before applying, evaluate whether or not all group members have enough experience to navigate in this area. If you have concerns about navigation, consider hiring an authorized guide.
• The suggested route to the Wave is a strenuous 6.4 mile round-trip hike. Consider the physical abilities and fitness level of all group members before applying. 
• The road that accesses the permit area is unpaved and minimally maintained. Most of the time, it is possible to reach the trailhead in a two-wheel-drive, high-clearance vehicle. However, four-wheel-drive, high-clearance vehicles may be required when the road is wet. During the rainy season and the winter months, the road may become impassable for all vehicles, even those with four-wheel-drive.
• Call 911 in case of a life-threatening emergency. Cell phones are unreliable in this area but may be able to reach 911 even when other numbers do not work.

Rules and Regulations

• Use of motorized and mechanized vehicles and equipment, and the launching and landing of drones, is prohibited in Paria Canyon-Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness. (eg. bicycles, skateboards, strollers)
• Visitors must register at trailheads when entering or leaving the area.
• All group members must stay together.
• Coyote Buttes North permit area is designated day use only. Overnight camping is prohibited.
• Dogs are allowed, but they must be included on the permit and kept under control at all times. Waste must be packed out.
• All natural and cultural objects are protected. 
• Defacing surfaces and cutting or trampling vegetation is prohibited. 
• Harassing or feeding wildlife is prohibited.
• Campfires and burning of trash are prohibited. All trash, including toilet paper, must be carried out.
• Recreational use of horses or pack stock is not permitted.
• A Special Recreation Permit is required in addition to the recreation permit, for all commercial uses such as outfitters or organized group guided trips where there is a fee charged.

Common Sense Hiking Tips

• There is no water at access points. Plan on carrying at least 1 gallon of water per person per day.
• Notify an emergency contact of your group’s plans before you begin your trip.
• Be aware of the weather and road conditions, and assume the risks involved. Make sure your group has the adequate experience level, physical fitness, supplies, and equipment to successfully complete this trip.
• Your safety and the safety of your group is your responsibility. Adequately plan and prepare for this trip. Take actions to ensure that your group is self-reliant and aware of the risks involved with backcountry and wilderness hiking.

Click here  for more information about permits for Coyote Buttes North.

The Wave post monsoon.

Coyote Buttes North pockets post rainfall

View of Coyote Buttes North (not The Wave). Beautiful stratified butte wall in the background with multicolored layers. The foreground contains a few pools of water that are trapped in sandstone. Between the pools and the butte wall are numerous sandstone rock formations or orange, red, and yellow. Looks like a world that Dr. Suess created.

The Wave Post Monsoon Stratified sandstone creates walls to pool water from the rains. Beautiful reflections of the sky on the still water.

A grouping of teepees in Coyote Buttes North with a sandstone surfaced landscape in the foreground.

Vehicle stuck in the mud on House Rock Valley Road.

Coyote Buttes North sandstone features. Vast landscape of sandstone with sandstone teepees in the distance and a beautiful blue sky with a touch of clouds.

Flickr Gallery

Geographic Coordinates

Permit information is available at the Kanab Visitor Center, located at 745 Highway 89, Kanab, Utah 84741. From Page, Arizona, head west on Highway 89 for 72 miles. When you reach Kanab, turn right (north) onto Fairway Drive and then turn immediately right (east) again.

External Map

Related links.

• Paria Contact Station
• Paria Canyon-Vermilion Cliffs Wilderness Area
• Permits: Paria Canyon 
• Permits: Coyote Buttes North, "The Wave"
• Permits: Coyote Buttes South
• White Pocket Brochure & Map
• Outfitters and Guides
• Vermilion Cliffs National Monument Junior Explorer Handbook

(435) 644-5506

White Pocket Tour

Fully Guided Tour

Photography Paradise!

Interesting Geology!

Other Paria / Vermillion Cliffs Tours

The Wave Tour

The Wave Tour with Wire Pass Slot Canyon

South Coyote Buttes Tour

The Amazing Sandstone Teepees Tour

White Pocket Overnight Tour

We go out of our way to open the wonders of the West to  EVERYONE .

We are permitted, licensed, and insured.

Dreamland Safari Tours holds Special Use Permits from the  Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument ,  Grand Canyon National Park , the  Vermilion Cliffs National Monument/Paria Wilderness , Glen Canyon National Recreation Area , Kanab Bureau of Land Management, Kaibab National Forest , and  Arizona Strip Bureau of Land Management .

Don't see your preferred departure date or time available via online booking? Give us a call. 

For sunset or sunrise at our more remote locations, we recommend a scheduled or custom overnight or multi-day tour - and we are happy to work with you to develop an itinerary that meets your needs.

All listed tour durations and pickup times are approximate. Please allow 10-20 minutes of pickup time flexibility for unforeseen circumstances and varying pickup logistics. Water and snacks are provided on all tours. A lunch meal is included on all tours of 6+ hours. Vegetarian option available.

We reserve the right to fill all empty seats on non-private tours.  Cancellation / Reschedule / Weather policy applies.

Please familiarize yourself with our  FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS   before contacting us.

To contact us with other specific questions or begin Making Reservations click the " Book Now " Button on each tour page or click Contact Us  for info on how to give us a call or shoot us an email.

White Pocket Tour Guests say it is as if they have entered a fantasy landscape on an alien planet. That’s just how striking the natural rock features are to behold. Our guides will show you some of the best angles for photography.

• Trip Details

Private Tour Upgrade Available?

Tour length, departure times, difficulty (1-10), recommended abilities, attractions, special interests, these faqs are specific to this tour. if you would like to view our general faqs click here ..

1. How much hiking will I have to do at White Pocket? We usually walk around 2-4 miles at White Pocket. This trip is easy to customize where less challenging routes can be chosen while those who are more adventurous may hike on steeper sections of rock or scramble to the tops of buttes. There is no marked trail at White Pocket. We will be walking on uneven sandstone so good balance and surefootedness is needed. At the very minimum, guests must be able to walk 250 yards across soft sand to get to a view of the formation. There is no way to see White Pocket from the car.

2. Do I need permits to see White Pocket? No, permits are not required at White Pocket at this time.

3. How much time is spent driving vs. hiking at White Pocket? This is a 9-hour tour and the drive to White Pocket takes between 2-2.5 hours from Kanab. We spend 3.5-4 hours at White Pocket hiking and eating lunch. We may also make brief stops along the route at viewpoints and places of interest.

4. How does White Pocket compare to the Wave? White Pocket and the Wave are only 6.5 miles apart as the raven flies, and both are shaped from the same 190-million-year-old Navajo Sandstone formation. White Pocket offers a much broader expanse of sandstone at 20 acres and it has a bigger variety of shapes, colors and features. Hikers or photographers can spend hours exploring its nooks and crannies. The features here are very condensed, meaning there is a lot to see without having to hike very far. The Wave requires a minimum 6.5-mile hike just to get to the Wave and back. The Wave itself is about 1 acre in size. To be fair, there is more to see besides the Wave at North Coyote Buttes, but more hiking and route finding is required. To learn more about how the two sites compare, read our  blogpost .

5. I am staying in Page. Where can we meet? We offer pick-up service at any hotel, vacation rental, or RV Park in Kanab, Utah, but we do not pick up in Page, Arizona. If you are staying in Page, we can arrange a meeting point halfway between Page and Kanab. Normally, this meeting point is at the intersection of Highway 89 and Houserock Valley Road, which is about 45 minutes west of Page, and is right on the way to White Pocket. Occasionally, we have to change this meeting point when the north end of House Rock Valley is muddy.  If you book an 8 a.m. tour, that is the time the tour departs Kanab, Utah. We would leave at 8 a.m. and meet you at 8:45 a.m. at Houserock Valley Road. Keep in mind that Page is in Arizona, which does not observe daylight savings time. So, from spring through fall, the time in Arizona is one hour earlier than in Utah, where our company operates. So, if our tour left Kanab at 8 a.m. (Utah time) and met you at 8:45 a.m. (Utah time), this would be 7:45 a.m Arizona time and you would need to leave Page by 7am. Daylight savings time starts sometime in mid-March and usually runs to the middle of November.

6. Is there a bathroom at White Pocket? There are no facilities of any kind at White Pocket. Depending on the route we take to White Pocket, we may stop at a flushable toilet or a pit toilet on our way there and on the way back to Kanab. Once at White Pocket, you may duck behind a tree or bush for privacy whenever necessary. All solid waste should be packed out and our guides carry WAG bags for this purpose, as well as toilet paper, hand wipes and plastic bags. Do not leave any trash on the ground. This is a wilderness area and must be kept pristine. Paper must be bagged up and can be discreetly discarded into the trash bag at the truck.

7. Do you offer sunset tours at White Pocket? Sunset tours are considered on a case-by-case basis, so call us at (435) 334-5703. We know sunset photography at White Pocket is world class. But White Pocket is 2.5 hours from Kanab, making sunset tours unfeasible for us for a good part of the year. They are much easier for us to accommodate in late fall, winter or very early spring while days are short. Consider our  White   Pocket   overnight  trip that allows for sunrise, sunset and even night photography.

8. Are drones allowed on this tour? Yes, but only directly above the formation as the area around White Pocket is wilderness! There is opportunity for incredible drone footage at White Pocket. When operating a drone on tours, please be mindful of other guests on the tour and other hikers who may be in the area. People seek remote locations for the solitude. Please do not fly drones close to other people and limit the amount of time the drone is in the air. Always follow instructions from your guide.

To read more FAQs that are common to all of our tours, visit our FAQs page.

Guest Experiences on the White Pocket Tour

Steve was an awesome guide and we had a great time hiking White Pocket (Vermillion Cliffs) with him. He customized our hike and planned a great route for us. Since we liked birds he stopped at the California Condor viewing area for us. We got to see 900 year old drawings and then amazing views of the white pocket are from different angles. Lunch was yummy with fresh veggies, fruit and meat. Fantastic Day, highly recommend.

DABEDB – May 20, 2019 TripAdvisor

Best tour ever. Such a beautiful natural wonder! The journey there and back was also amazing. Andrea was an excellent guide pointing out all kinds of interesting features of the landscape. Her driving was swift and safe in a well maintained all wheel drive vehicle. I would not want to attempt this trip on my own even with a adequate all wheel drive vehicle. White Pocket itself is simply stunning. I would recommend this tour to anyone who appreciates natural wonders.

I8990KDrobertr – May 16, 2019 TripAdvisor

Took a tour of White Pocket with Dreamland at the end of April with Andrea as our tour guide. It was a great experience. White pocket is very difficult to get to – both in terms of terrain and directions. Having a guide to get you there safely, as well as give some interesting history and facts on the area was great. Would definitely recommend!

Jamie U – May 12, 2019 TripAdvisor

Bailey did a great job for our small group. My wife and I enjoyed everyone’s company as well as the good lunch prepared for us. It takes a while to get out to White Pocket, but you will be glad you made the effort to see this fascinating area.

Departure68316626825 – May 10, 2019 TripAdvisor

Just completed a truly wonderful visit to White Pocket on a photo safari with Dreamland and AZ Highways Photo Tours. Dreamland’s outfitters were outstanding. Food was almost too good and plentiful. Their service and attention to detail is outstanding. Not sure when my next trip is with them but I’m already looking forward to it!

Terry G – May 7, 2019 TripAdvisor

Single Travelers & Private Tours

We can always accommodate single travelers via private tours.  Often times, we are also able to combine a single traveler with other scheduled parties; please give us a call at 435-644-5506 to discuss the latter option.

Private Tours are available to be booked online.

Unique compositions are literally found every few steps in this world-class photographic wonderland. You won’t want to leave.

Our White Pocket Tour in extreme Northern Arizona guides you through a gnarled expanse laid bare right at the transition between the white and reddish orange sandstone. It has twists, multi-color striations of white, yellow, red, orange, and pink, pock marks and pools that sometimes fill with water, mushroom like protrusions, strange bulges that look like brains, polygonal fracturing, and wave-like features. The processes that have given yield to these bizarre rock formations stump even expert geologists. Some think that the area was liquefied in an ancient earthquake which distorted the sandstone layers while they were still soft, before they were buried under the oceans for 100 million years and turned to stone under the enormous heat and pressure.

The White Pocket Tour guides you to one of the most photogenic places in the Vermillion Cliffs N.M., Northern Arizona, and perhaps the entire Southwest, rivaling the Wave in size, variety, and complexity. To find out more about how White Pocket compares to the Wave click ahead to read our BLOG .

Dreamland Safari Tours holds Special Use Permits from the  Grand Staircase Escalante National Monument ,  Grand Canyon National Park , the  Vermilion Cliffs National Monument/Paria Wilderness ,  Kanab Bureau of Land Management  and  Arizona Strip Bureau of Land Management .

Don’t see your preferred departure date or time available via online booking? Give us a call. 

For sunset or sunrise at our more remote locations, we recommend a scheduled or custom overnight or multi-day tour – and we are happy to work with you to develop an itinerary that meets your needs.

To contact us with other specific questions or begin Making Reservations click the “ Book Now ” Button on each tour page or click Contact Us  for info on how to give us a call or shoot us an email.

About White Pocket

White Pocket has gained notoriety only recently as a photographer’s playground and world-class hiking destination. It is the perfect alternative to the Wave in North Coyote Buttes and White Pocket lies less than 6 miles away from that famous feature. The colorful stripes and otherworldly rock shapes provide infinite opportunity for photography, and the hiking is much easier than at the Wave. The White Pocket formation itself is 0.7 of a mile across, which doesn’t sound very big, but the gorgeous striations are quite condensed. And it is much bigger than the actual Wave, which is about 2 acres in size.

At White Pocket, the view changes constantly and curious hikers will want to peer around every corner and climb up onto each high point. Those who really appreciate natural beauty have spent a full day exploring White Pocket and felt like they barely scratched the surface. Our guides still uncover fascinating details after scores of trips there.

The Grand Staircase provides a vast and gorgeous backdrop for White Pocket’s intense swirls and white polygonal brain rock. Look out past White Pocket to the brilliant red sandstone of the Coyote Buttes, the Cockscomb, the landmark known as Molly’s Nipple, the Kaibab Plateau and the colorful layers of the Grand Staircase.

Getting to White Pocket

The Jurassic age sandstone formation is situated on the remote and rugged Paria Plateau in the Vermilion Cliffs National Monument in Arizona, less than three miles from the Utah border. Its remoteness ensures you won’t encounter crowds here. In fact, on most days there are only a handful of cars at the trailhead. It’s easy to find a secluded spot at White Pocket where you will hear and see no one.

Roads on the Paria Plateau are unmaintained and are comprised of deep sand with rocky sections scattered throughout. A four-wheel drive vehicle with good ground clearance and off road tires is a must. Some experience driving in deep sand can really come in handy, especially in summer when the sand is dry, soft and deep. It takes at least 2.5 hours from Kanab or from Page to get to White Pocket. On our tours, we try to make a loop drive out of the trip when we can, depending on road conditions, weather and our pick up locations. On our preferred route, we take 89A out of Kanab heading through Jacob Lake and then we enter House Rock Valley from the south, where we stop at a California Condor release site to look for the endangered raptors. Soon after visiting the condor site, we turn east and head up onto the Paria Plateau. This is where maintained roads end. When we reach Pine Tree Pocket, we veer north and traverse about 10 more miles of sandy roads to White Pocket.

On our way home, depending on weather, we may exit the Vermilion Cliffs National Monument through the north end of House Rock Valley where we catch the gorgeous Vermilion Cliffs and the brilliant East Kaibab Monocline (Cockscomb) in the soft, afternoon light.

It’s a long drive to White Pocket, there is no way around it, but the variety of scenery on the way is incredible and the feeling of remoteness in itself is a real thrill. These roads are remote, sandy and not clearly marked. We rarely bring guests to White Pocket who later say they would have been comfortable navigating the roads on their own.

White Pocket Geology

Rewind 190 million years and imagine a hot, dry desert with gigantic sand dunes stacking up in the brisk wind. White Pocket is comprised of Navajo sandstone that got its start as towering dunes back in the early Jurassic Period. Back then, the area was much closer to the equator than it is today. As the dunes were buried under more and more sand, they became saturated with groundwater. Slowly, groundwater minerals cemented the sand grains together, turning the dunes to stone. But that’s only part of the story. Something happened here, a major ground disturbance – perhaps an earthquake that triggered an underground landslide – that caused layers of sediment to separate, fold and become sheared while the sand was saturated with water and before it had turned to stone. Geologists call this soft sediment deformation. The result of the massive sand slide is wildly contorted and twisted rock. The specifics of how some of the formations came to be stump the most experienced geologists.

There are many shades of red, pink and yellow that are caused by the oxidation of iron-bearing minerals. Pink hues in the rock often indicate the presence of hematite, while limonite appears yellow or brown. The white coating over White Pocket is calcium carbonate.

There are several theories about how the polygonal cracks in the “brain rock” came to be, including thermal contraction, moisture cycles and drying processes of the sandy sediments and tensile forces. Similar cracks have been observed elsewhere on the Colorado Plateau and even on the moon. Guests sometimes say it feels like you’re walking on the back of a giant white dragon or strolling across the surface of the moon. Another “otherworldly” feature found at White Pocket is Moqui marbles. The marble-like concretion has a sandstone center encased in an iron oxide shell.  Scientists say iron was dissolved into ground water 50 million years ago and collected to form sphere shaped iron concretions. In 2004, two Mars rovers landed on the Red Planet and sent back images of BB sized formations similar to Moqui marbles. NASA scientists call them Martian blueberries. NASA studied Moqui marbles on the Colorado Plateau to learn how they form, wondering if this could provide evidence of water on Mars. Results are inconclusive. The Martian blueberries may have been caused by meteorites. But walking around the bizarre landscape at White Pocket, it’s easy to imagine a connection between it and Mars. Rock gathering in the national monument is not allowed.

Human History

Humans have probably been visiting White Pocket since the ice age when nomadic hunters wandered the expansive landscape in search of large game. The Paria Plateau is also home Native American ruins dating back to the Pueblo Periods from about 750 A.D to 1250 A.D. Pottery fragments and arrowhead flakes can be found in the sand surrounding White Pocket. Ancient corn cobs and petroglyphs depicting desert bighorn sheep and deer have been found in the vicinity.  More recently, ranchers settled and grazing began somewhere around 1840. On the dry plateau, ranchers often drew water from underground springs using pumps powered by windmills. One such windmill, now out of commission, is seen along Corral Valley Road at Corral Valley Pockets. The word ‘pocket’ is a ranching term for a place that holds water. That’s how White Pocket got its name. Way before we sightseers showed up with our cameras, cattlemen were watering their stock in pockets of water on the formation. They even built two concrete dams in 1929 to increase the water capacity of the water pockets. Today, we enjoy these reflective pools for their incredible photographic potential and for their fascinating wildlife. Fairy shrimp, tadpoles and triops are often spotted in the pools.

While ranchers no longer live on the plateau and the land is in public hands, cowboys can still occasionally be spotted rounding up cattle on horseback. One family has ranched the plateau for four generations. Most of the roads on the Paria Plateau were created by ranchers who needed to mend fences and water their cattle. Other signs of ranching are evident: corrals, old abandoned trucks, broken windmills, and cowboy graffiti are signs of a different time. Richard Faye Hamblin (1908-1976) is one cowboy who signed his name on the plateau, on a sandstone wall near White Pocket.

Dreamland Women's Adventure Award Application / Nomination

Know a woman who could use a fresh-air getaway to Southern Utah at close to no cost? Nominate her (or yourself!) today. You are welcome to nominate more than one individual by submitting multiple nomination forms. The Women's Adventure Award weekend takes place from March 1-3 2024 and includes a full-day hiking adventure with Dreamland Safari Tours, two nights of lodging, meals, and more. Adventure Award recipients are responsible for their own travel to/from Kanab and need to plan to arrive in Kanab by 4pm on the afternoon of Friday March 1.

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• The IWD Adventure Award intends to recognize women who are advocates for female participation and leadership in their community, and inspire others * What example of leadership accomplishments, community involvement, or impactful projects can you share with us that will give us a better understanding of how your nominee contributes to her community?
• Optional: What impact has the nominee had on your life? If you have a personal story to share, don't hold back. If you are nominating yourself, you don't need to answer this question (unless you really want to!).

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Ronna McDaniel, TV News and the Trump Problem

The former republican national committee chairwoman was hired by nbc and then let go after an outcry..

This transcript was created using speech recognition software. While it has been reviewed by human transcribers, it may contain errors. Please review the episode audio before quoting from this transcript and email [email protected] with any questions.

From “The New York Times,” I’m Michael Barbaro. This is “The Daily.”

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Today, the saga of Ronna McDaniel and NBC and what it reveals about the state of television news headed into the 2024 presidential race. Jim Rutenberg, a “Times” writer at large, is our guest.

It’s Monday, April 1.

Jim, NBC News just went through a very public, a very searing drama over the past week, that we wanted you to make sense of in your unique capacity as a longtime media and political reporter at “The Times.” This is your sweet spot. You were, I believe, born to dissect this story for us.

Oh, brother.

Well, on the one hand, this is a very small moment for a major network like NBC. They hire, as a contributor, not an anchor, not a correspondent, as a contributor, Ronna McDaniel, the former RNC chairwoman. It blows up in a mini scandal at the network.

But to me, it represents a much larger issue that’s been there since that moment Donald J. Trump took his shiny gold escalator down to announce his presidential run in 2015. This struggle by the news media to figure out, especially on television, how do we capture him, cover him for all of his lies, all the challenges he poses to Democratic norms, yet not alienate some 74, 75 million American voters who still follow him, still believe in him, and still want to hear his reality reflected in the news that they’re listening to?

Right. Which is about as gnarly a conundrum as anyone has ever dealt with in the news media.

Well, it’s proven so far unsolvable.

Well, let’s use the story of what actually happened with Ronna McDaniel and NBC to illustrate your point. And I think that means describing precisely what happened in this situation.

The story starts out so simply. It’s such a basic thing that television networks do. As elections get underway, they want people who will reflect the two parties.

They want talking heads. They want insiders. They want them on their payroll so they can rely on them whenever they need them. And they want them to be high level so they can speak with great knowledge about the two major candidates.

Right. And rather than needing to beg these people to come on their show at 6 o’clock, when they might be busy and it’s not their full-time job, they go off and they basically put them on retainer for a bunch of money.

Yeah. And in this case, here’s this perfect scenario because quite recently, Ronna McDaniel, the chairwoman of the Republican National Committee through the Trump era, most of it, is now out on the market. She’s actually recently been forced out of the party. And all the networks are interested because here’s the consummate insider from Trump world ready to get snatched up under contract for the next election and can really represent this movement that they’ve been trying to capture.

So NBC’S key news executives move pretty aggressively, pretty swiftly, and they sign her up for a $300,000 a year contributor’s contract.

Nice money if you can get it.

Not at millions of dollars that they pay their anchors, but a very nice contract. I’ll take it. You’ll take it. In the eyes of NBC execs she was perfect because she can be on “Meet the Press” as a panelist. She can help as they figure out some of their coverage. They have 24 hours a day to fill and here’s an official from the RNC. You can almost imagine the question that would be asked to her. It’s 10:00 PM on election night. Ronna, what are the Trump people thinking right now? They’re looking at the same numbers you are.

That was good, but that’s exactly it. And we all know it, right? This is television in our current era.

So last Friday, NBC makes what should be a routine announcement, but one they’re very proud of, that they’ve hired Ronna McDaniel. And in a statement, they say it couldn’t be a more important moment to have a voice like Ronna’s on the team. So all’s good, right? Except for there’s a fly in the ointment.

Because it turns out that Ronna McDaniel has been slated to appear on “Meet the Press,” not as a paid NBC contributor, but as a former recently ousted RNC chair with the “Meet The Press” host, Kristen Welker, who’s preparing to have a real tough interview with Ronna McDaniel. Because of course, Ronna McDaniel was chair of the party and at Trump’s side as he tried to refuse his election loss. So this was supposed to be a showdown interview.

From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is “Meet The Press” with Kristen Welker.

And here, all of a sudden, Kristin Welker is thrown for a loop.

In full disclosure to our viewers, this interview was scheduled weeks before it was announced that McDaniel would become a paid NBC News contributor.

Because now, she’s actually interviewing a member of the family who’s on the same payroll.

Right. Suddenly, she’s interviewing a colleague.

This will be a news interview, and I was not involved in her hiring.

So what happens during the interview?

So Welker is prepared for a tough interview, and that’s exactly what she does.

Can you say, as you sit here today, did Joe Biden win the election fair and square?

He won. He’s the legitimate president.

Did he win fair and square?

Fair and square, he won. It’s certified. It’s done.

She presses her on the key question that a lot of Republicans get asked these days — do you accept Joe Biden was the winner of the election?

But, I do think, Kristen —

Ronna, why has it taken you until now to say that? Why has it taken you until now to be able to say that?

I’m going to push back a little.

McDaniel gets defensive at times.

Because I do think it’s fair to say there were problems in 2020. And to say that does not mean he’s not the legitimate president.

But, Ronna, when you say that, it suggests that there was something wrong with the election. And you know that the election was the most heavily scrutinized. Chris Krebs —

It’s a really combative interview.

I want to turn now to your actions in the aftermath of the 2020 election.

And Welker actually really does go deeply into McDaniel’s record in those weeks before January 6.

On November 17, you and Donald Trump were recorded pushing two Republican Michigan election officials not to certify the results of the election. And on the call —

For instance, she presses McDaniel on McDaniel’s role in an attempt to convince a couple county commissioner level canvassers in Michigan to not certify Biden’s victory.

Our call that night was to say, are you OK? Vote your conscience. Not pushing them to do anything.

McDaniel says, look, I was just telling them to vote their conscience. They should do whatever they think is right.

But you said, do not sign it. If you can go home tonight, do not sign it. How can people read that as anything other than a pressure campaign?

And Welker’s not going to just let her off the hook. Welker presses her on Trump’s own comments about January 6 and Trump’s efforts recently to gloss over some of the violence, and to say that those who have been arrested, he’ll free them.

Do you support that?

I want to be very clear. The violence that happened on January 6 is unacceptable.

And this is a frankly fascinating moment because you can hear McDaniel starting to, if not quite reverse some of her positions, though in some cases she does that, at least really soften her language. It’s almost as if she’s switching uniforms from the RNC one to an NBC one or almost like breaking from a role she was playing.

Ronna, why not speak out earlier? Why just speak out about that now?

When you’re the RNC chair, you kind of take one for the whole team, right? Now, I get to be a little bit more myself.

She says, hey, you know what? Sometimes as RNC chair, you just have to take it for the team sometimes.

Right. What she’s really saying is I did things as chairwoman of the Republican National committee that now that I no longer have that job, I can candidly say, I wished I hadn’t done, which is very honest. But it’s also another way of saying I’m two faced, or I was playing a part.

Ronna McDaniel, thank you very much for being here this morning.

Then something extraordinary happens. And I have to say, I’ve never seen a moment like this in decades of watching television news and covering television news.

Welcome back. The panel is here. Chuck Todd, NBC News chief political analyst.

Welker brings her regular panel on, including Chuck Todd, now the senior NBC political analyst.

Chuck, let’s dive right in. What were your takeaways?

And he launches right into what he calls —

Look, let me deal with the elephant in the room.

The elephant being this hiring of McDaniel.

I think our bosses owe you an apology for putting you in this situation.

And he proceeds, on NBC’S air, to lace into management for, as he describes it, putting Welker in this crazy awkward position.

Because I don’t know what to believe. She is now a paid contributor by NBC News. I have no idea whether any answer she gave to you was because she didn’t want to mess up her contract.

And Todd is very hung up on this idea that when she was speaking for the party, she would say one thing. And now that she’s on the payroll at NBC, she’s saying another thing.

She has credibility issues that she still has to deal with. Is she speaking for herself, or is she speaking on behalf of who’s paying her?

Todd is basically saying, how are we supposed to know which one to believe.

What can we believe?

It is important for this network and for always to have a wide aperture. Having ideological diversity on this panel is something I prided myself on.

And what he’s effectively saying is that his bosses should have never hired her in this capacity.

I understand the motivation, but this execution, I think, was poor.

Someone said to me last night we live in complicated times. Thank you guys for being here. I really appreciate it.

Now, let’s just note here, this isn’t just any player at NBC. Chuck Todd is obviously a major news name at the network. And him doing this appears to just open the floodgates across the entire NBC News brand, especially on its sister cable network, MSNBC.

And where I said I’d never seen anything like what I saw on “Meet the Press” that morning, I’d never seen anything like this either. Because now, the entire MSNBC lineup is in open rebellion. I mean, from the minute that the sun comes up. There is Joe Scarborough and Mika Brzezinski.

We weren’t asked our opinion of the hiring. But if we were, we would have strongly objected to it.

They’re on fire over this.

believe NBC News should seek out conservative Republican voices, but it should be conservative Republicans, not a person who used her position of power to be an anti-democracy election denier.

But it rolls out across the entire schedule.

Because Ronna McDaniel has been a major peddler of the big lie.

The fact that Ms. McDaniel is on the payroll at NBC News, to me that is inexplicable. I mean, you wouldn’t hire a mobster to work at a DA’s office.

Rachel Maddow devotes an entire half hour.

It’s not about just being associated with Donald Trump and his time in the Republican Party. It’s not even about lying or not lying. It’s about our system of government.

Thumbing their noses at our bosses and basically accusing them of abetting a traitorous figure in American history. I mean, just extraordinary stuff. It’s television history.

And let’s face it, we journalists, our bosses, we can be seen as crybabies, and we’re paid complaining. Yeah, that’s what we’re paid to do. But in this case, the NBC executives cannot ignore this, because in the outcry, there’s a very clear point that they’re all making. Ronna McDaniel is not just a voice from the other side. She was a fundamental part of Trump’s efforts to deny his election loss.

This is not inviting the other side. This is someone who’s on the wrong side —

Of history.

Of history, of these moments that we’ve covered and are still covering.

And I think it’s fair to say that at this point, everyone understands that Ronna McDaniel’s time at NBC News is going to be very short lived. Yeah, basically, after all this, the executives at NBC have to face facts it’s over. And on Tuesday night, they release a statement to the staff saying as much.

They don’t cite the questions about red lines or what Ronna McDaniel represented or didn’t represent. They just say we need to have a unified newsroom. We want cohesion. This isn’t working.

I think in the end, she was a paid contributor for four days.

Yeah, one of the shortest tenures in television news history. And look, in one respect, by their standards, this is kind of a pretty small contract, a few hundred thousand dollars they may have to pay out. But it was way more costly because they hired her. They brought her on board because they wanted to appeal to these tens of millions of Americans who still love Donald J. Trump.

And what happens now is that this entire thing is blown up in their face, and those very same people now see a network that, in their view, in the view of Republicans across the country, this network will not accept any Republicans. So it becomes more about that. And Fox News, NBC’S longtime rival, goes wall to wall with this.

Now, NBC News just caved to the breathless demands from their far left, frankly, emotionally unhinged host.

I mean, I had it on my desk all day. And every minute I looked at that screen, it was pounding on these liberals at NBC News driving this Republican out.

It’s the shortest tenure in TV history, I think. But why? Well, because she supports Donald Trump, period.

So in a way, this leaves NBC worse off with that Trump Republican audience they had wanted to court than maybe even they were before. It’s like a boomerang with a grenade on it.

Yeah, it completely explodes in their face. And that’s why to me, the whole episode is so representative of this eight-year conundrum for the news media, especially on television. They still haven’t been able to crack the code for how to handle the Trump movement, the Trump candidacy, and what it has wrought on the American political system and American journalism.

We’ll be right back.

Jim, put into context this painful episode of NBC into that larger conundrum you just diagnosed that the media has faced when it comes to Trump.

Well, Michael, it’s been there from the very beginning, from the very beginning of his political rise. The media was on this kind of seesaw. They go back and forth over how to cover him. Sometimes they want to cover him quite aggressively because he’s such a challenging candidate. He was bursting so many norms.

But at other times, there was this instinct to understand his appeal, for the same reason. He’s such an unusual candidate. So there was a great desire to really understand his voters. And frankly, to speak to his voters, because they’re part of the audience. And we all lived it, right?

But just let me take you back anyway because everything’s fresh again with perspective. And so if you go back, let’s look at when he first ran. The networks, if you recall, saw him as almost like a novelty candidate.

He was going to spice up what was expected to be a boring campaign between the usual suspects. And he was a ratings magnet. And the networks, they just couldn’t get enough of it. And they allowed him, at times, to really shatter their own norms.

Welcome back to “Meet the Press,” sir.

Good morning, Chuck.

Good morning. Let me start —

He was able to just call into the studio and riff with the likes of George Stephanopoulos and Chuck Todd.

What does it have to do with Hillary?

She can’t talk about me because nobody respects women more than Donald Trump.

And CNN gave him a lot of unmitigated airtime, if you recall during the campaign. They would run the press conferences.

It’s the largest winery on the East Coast. I own it 100 percent.

And let him promote his Trump steaks and his Trump wine.

Trump steaks. Where are the steaks? Do we have steaks?

I mean, it got that crazy. But again, the ratings were huge. And then he wins. And because they had previously given him all that airtime, they’ve, in retrospect, sort of given him a political gift, and more than that now have a journalistic imperative to really address him in a different way, to cover him as they would have covered any other candidate, which, let’s face it, they weren’t doing initially. So there’s this extra motivation to make up for lost ground and maybe for some journalistic omissions.

Right. Kind of correct for the lack of a rigorous journalistic filter in the campaign.

Exactly. And the big thing that this will be remembered for is we’re going to call a lie a lie.

I don’t want to sugarcoat this because facts matter, and the fact is President Trump lies.

Trump lies. We’re going to say it’s a lie.

And I think we can’t just mince around it because they are lies. And so we need to call them what they are.

We’re no longer going to use euphemisms or looser language we’re. Going to call it for what it is.

Trump lies in tweets. He spreads false information at rallies. He lies when he doesn’t need to. He lies when the truth is more than enough for him.

CNN was running chyrons. They would fact check Trump and call lies lies on the screen while Trump is talking. They were challenging Trump to his face —

One of the statements that you made in the tail end of the campaign in the midterms that —

Here we go.

That — well, if you don’t mind, Mr. President, that this caravan was an invasion.

— in these crazy press conferences —

They’re are hundreds of miles away, though. They’re hundreds and hundreds of miles away. That’s not an invasion.

Honestly, I think you should let me run the country. You run CNN. And if you did it well, your ratings —

Well, let me ask — if I may ask one other question. Mr. President, if I may ask another question. Are you worried —

That’s enough. That’s enough.

And Trump is giving it right back.

I tell you what, CNN should be ashamed of itself having you working for them. You are a rude, terrible person. You shouldn’t be working for CNN.

Very combative.

So this was this incredibly fraught moment for the American press. You’ve got tens of millions of Trump supporters seeing what’s really basic fact checking. These look like attacks to Trump supporters. Trump, in turn, is calling the press, the reporters are enemies of the people. So it’s a terrible dynamic.

And when January 6 happens, it’s so obviously out of control. And what the traditional press that follows, traditional journalistic rules has to do is make it clear that the claims that Trump is making about a stolen election are just so abjectly false that they don’t warrant a single minute of real consideration once the reporting has been done to show how false they are. And I think that American journalism really emerged from that feeling strongly about its own values and its own place in society.

But then there’s still tens of millions of Trump voters, and they don’t feel so good about the coverage. And they don’t agree that January 6 was an insurrection. And so we enter yet another period, where the press is going to have to now maybe rethink some things.

In what way?

Well, there’s a kind of quiet period after January 6. Trump is off of social media. The smoke is literally dissipating from the air in Washington. And news executives are kind of standing there on the proverbial battlefield, taking a new look at their situation.

And they’re seeing that in this clearer light, they’ve got some new problems, perhaps none more important for their entire business models than that their ratings are quickly crashing. And part of that diminishment is that a huge part of the country, that Trump-loving part of the audience, is really now severed from him from their coverage.

They see the press as actually, in some cases, being complicit in stealing an election. And so these news executives, again, especially on television, which is so ratings dependent, they’ve got a problem. So after presumably learning all these lessons about journalism and how to confront power, there’s a first subtle and then much less subtle rethinking.

Maybe we need to pull back from that approach. And maybe we need to take some new lessons and switch it up a little bit and reverse some of what we did. And one of the best examples of this is none other than CNN.

It had come under new management, was being led by a guy named Chris Licht, a veteran of cable news, but also Stephen Colbert’s late night show in his last job. And his new job under this new management is we’re going to recalibrate a little bit. So Chris Licht proceeds to try to bring the network back to the center.

And how does he do that?

Well, we see some key personalities who represented the Trump combat era start losing air time and some of them lose their jobs. There’s talk of, we want more Republicans on the air. There was a famous magazine article about Chris Licht’s balancing act here.

And Chris Licht says to a reporter, Tim Alberta of the “Atlantic” magazine, look, a lot in the media, including at his own network, quote unquote, “put on a jersey, took a side.” They took a side. And he says, I think we understand that jersey cannot go back on him. Because he says in the end of the day, by the way, it didn’t even work. We didn’t change anyone’s mind.

He’s saying that confrontational approach that defined the four years Trump was in office, that was a reaction to the feeling that TV news had failed to properly treat Trump with sufficient skepticism, that that actually was a failure both of journalism and of the TV news business. Is that what he’s saying?

Yeah. On the business side, it’s easier call, right? You want a bigger audience, and you’re not getting the bigger audience. But he’s making a journalistic argument as well that if the job is to convey the truth and take it to the people, and they take that into account as they make their own voting decisions and formulate their own opinions about American politics, if tens of millions of people who do believe that election was stolen are completely tuning you out because now they see you as a political combatant, you’re not achieving your ultimate goal as a journalist.

And what does Licht’s “don’t put a jersey back on” approach look like on CNN for its viewers?

Well, It didn’t look good. People might remember this, but the most glaring example —

Please welcome, the front runner for the Republican nomination for president, Donald Trump.

— was when he held a town hall meeting featuring Donald J. Trump, now candidate Trump, before an audience packed with Trump’s fans.

You look at what happened during that election. Unless you’re a very stupid person, you see what happens. A lot of the people —

Trump let loose a string of falsehoods.

Most people understand what happened. It was a rigged election.

The audience is pro-Trump audience, was cheering him on.

Are you ready? Are you ready? Can I talk?

Yeah, what’s your answer?

Can I? Do you mind?

I would like for you to answer the question.

OK. It’s very simple to answer.

That’s why I asked it.

It’s very simple. You’re a nasty person, I’ll tell you that.

And during, the CNN anchor hosting this, Kaitlan Collins, on CNN’s own air, it was a disaster.

It felt like a callback to the unlearned lessons of 2016.

Yeah. And in this case, CNN’s staff was up in arms.

Big shakeup in the cable news industry as CNN makes another change at the top.

Chris Licht is officially out at CNN after a chaotic run as chairman and CEO.

And Chris Licht didn’t survive it.

The chief executive’s departure comes as he faced criticism in recent weeks after the network hosted a town hall with Donald Trump and the network’s ratings started to drop.

But I want to say that the CNN leadership still, even after that, as they brought new leadership in, said, this is still the path we’re going to go on. Maybe that didn’t work out, but we’re still here. This is still what we have to do.

Right. And this idea is very much in the water of TV news, that this is the right overall direction.

Yeah. This is, by no means, isolated to CNN. This is throughout the traditional news business. These conversations are happening everywhere. But CNN was living it at that point.

And this, of course, is how we get to NBC deciding to hire Ronna McDaniel.

Right. Because they’re picking up — right where that conversation leaves off, they’re having the same conversation. But for NBC, you could argue this tension between journalistic values and audience. It’s even more pressing. Because even though MSNBC is a niche cable network, NBC News is part of an old-fashioned broadcast network. It’s on television stations throughout the country.

And in fact, those networks, they still have 6:30 newscasts. And believe it or not, millions of people still watch those every night. Maybe not as many as they used to, but there’s still some six or seven million people tuning in to nightly news. That’s important.

Right. We should say that kind of number is sometimes double or triple that of the cable news prime time shows that get all the attention.

On their best nights. So this is big business still. And that business is based on broad — it’s called broadcast for a reason. That’s based on broad audiences. So NBC had a business imperative, and they argue they had a journalistic imperative.

So given all of that, Jim, I think the big messy question here is, when it comes to NBC, did they make a tactical error around hiring the wrong Republican which blew up? Or did they make an even larger error in thinking that the way you handle Trump and his supporters is to work this hard to reach them, when they might not even be reachable?

The best way to answer that question is to tell you what they’re saying right now, NBC management. What the management saying is, yes, this was a tactical error. This was clearly the wrong Republican. We get it.

But they’re saying, we are going to — and they said this in their statement, announcing that they were severing ties with McDaniel. They said, we’re going to redouble our efforts to represent a broad spectrum of the American votership. And that’s what they meant was that we’re going to still try to reach these Trump voters with people who can relate to them and they can relate to.

But the question is, how do you even do that when so many of his supporters believe a lie? How is NBC, how is CNN, how are any of these TV networks, if they have decided that this is their mission, how are they supposed to speak to people who believe something fundamentally untrue as a core part of their political identity?

That’s the catch-22. How do you get that Trump movement person who’s also an insider, when the litmus test to be an insider in the Trump movement is to believe in the denialism or at least say you do? So that’s a real journalistic problem. And the thing that we haven’t really touched here is, what are these networks doing day in and day out?

They’re not producing reported pieces, which I think it’s a little easier. You just report the news. You go out into the world. You talk to people, and then you present it to the world as a nuanced portrait of the country. This thing is true. This thing is false. Again, in many cases, pretty straightforward. But their bread and butter is talking heads. It’s live. It’s not edited. It’s not that much reported.

So their whole business model especially, again, on cable, which has 24 hours to fill, is talking heads. And if you want the perspective from the Trump movement, journalistically, especially when it comes to denialism, but when it comes to some other major subjects in American life, you’re walking into a place where they’re going to say things that aren’t true, that don’t pass your journalistic standards, the most basic standards of journalism.

Right. So you’re saying if TV sticks with this model, the kind of low cost, lots of talk approach to news, then they are going to have to solve the riddle of who to bring on, who represents Trump’s America if they want that audience. And now they’ve got this red line that they’ve established, that that person can’t be someone who denies the 2020 election reality. But like you just said, that’s the litmus test for being in Trump’s orbit.

So this doesn’t really look like a conundrum. This looks like a bit of a crisis for TV news because it may end up meaning that they can’t hire that person that they need for this model, which means that perhaps a network like NBC does need to wave goodbye to a big segment of these viewers and these eyeballs who support Trump.

I mean, on the one hand, they are not ready to do that, and they would never concede that that’s something they’re ready to do. The problem is barring some kind of change in their news model, there’s no solution to this.

But why bar changes to their news model, I guess, is the question. Because over the years, it’s gotten more and more expensive to produce news, the news that I’m talking about, like recorded packages and what we refer to as reporting. Just go out and report the news.

Don’t gab about it. Just what’s going on, what’s true, what’s false. That’s actually very expensive in television. And they don’t have the kind of money they used to have. So the talking heads is their way to do programming at a level where they can afford it.

They do some packages. “60 Minutes” still does incredible work. NBC does packages, but the lion’s share of what they do is what we’re talking about. And that’s not going to change because the economics aren’t there.

So then a final option, of course, to borrow something Chris Licht said, is that a network like NBC perhaps doesn’t put a jersey on, but accepts the reality that a lot of the world sees them wearing a jersey.

Yeah. I mean, nobody wants to be seen as wearing a jersey in our business. No one wants to be wearing a jersey on our business. But maybe what they really have to accept is that we’re just sticking to the true facts, and that may look like we’re wearing a jersey, but we’re not. And that may, at times, look like it’s lining up more with the Democrats, but we’re not.

If Trump is lying about a stolen election, that’s not siding against him. That’s siding for the truth, and that’s what we’re doing. Easier said than done. And I don’t think any of these concepts are new.

I think there have been attempts to do that, but it’s the world they’re in. And it’s the only option they really have. We’re going to tell you the truth, even if it means that we’re going to lose a big part of the country.

Well, Jim, thank you very much.

Thank you, Michael.

Here’s what else you need to know today.

[PROTESTERS CHANTING]

Over the weekend, thousands of protesters took to the streets of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in some of the largest domestic demonstrations against the government of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu since Israel invaded Gaza in the fall.

[NON-ENGLISH SPEECH]

Some of the protesters called on Netanyahu to reach a cease fire deal that would free the hostages taken by Hamas on October 7. Others called for early elections that would remove Netanyahu from office.

During a news conference on Sunday, Netanyahu rejected calls for early elections, saying they would paralyze his government at a crucial moment in the war.

Today’s episode was produced by Rob Szypko, Rikki Novetsky, and Alex Stern, with help from Stella Tan.

It was edited by Brendan Klinkenberg with help from Rachel Quester and Paige Cowett. Contains original music by Marion Lozano, Dan Powell, and Rowan Niemisto and was engineered by Chris Wood. Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly.

That’s it for “The Daily.” I’m Michael Barbaro. See you tomorrow.

• April 2, 2024   •   29:32 Kids Are Missing School at an Alarming Rate
• April 1, 2024   •   36:14 Ronna McDaniel, TV News and the Trump Problem
• March 29, 2024   •   48:42 Hamas Took Her, and Still Has Her Husband
• March 28, 2024   •   33:40 The Newest Tech Start-Up Billionaire? Donald Trump.
• March 27, 2024   •   28:06 Democrats’ Plan to Save the Republican House Speaker
• March 26, 2024   •   29:13 The United States vs. the iPhone
• March 25, 2024   •   25:59 A Terrorist Attack in Russia
• March 24, 2024   •   21:39 The Sunday Read: ‘My Goldendoodle Spent a Week at Some Luxury Dog ‘Hotels.’ I Tagged Along.’
• March 22, 2024   •   35:30 Chuck Schumer on His Campaign to Oust Israel’s Leader
• March 21, 2024   •   27:18 The Caitlin Clark Phenomenon
• March 20, 2024   •   25:58 The Bombshell Case That Will Transform the Housing Market
• March 19, 2024   •   27:29 Trump’s Plan to Take Away Biden’s Biggest Advantage

Hosted by Michael Barbaro

Featuring Jim Rutenberg

Produced by Rob Szypko ,  Rikki Novetsky and Alex Stern

With Stella Tan

Edited by Brendan Klinkenberg ,  Rachel Quester and Paige Cowett

Original music by Marion Lozano ,  Dan Powell and Rowan Niemisto

Engineered by Chris Wood

Listen and follow The Daily Apple Podcasts | Spotify | Amazon Music

Ronna McDaniel’s time at NBC was short. The former Republican National Committee chairwoman was hired as an on-air political commentator but released just days later after an on-air revolt by the network’s leading stars.

Jim Rutenberg, a writer at large for The Times, discusses the saga and what it might reveal about the state of television news heading into the 2024 presidential race.

On today’s episode

Jim Rutenberg , a writer at large for The New York Times.

Background reading

Ms. McDaniel’s appointment had been immediately criticized by reporters at the network and by viewers on social media.

The former Republican Party leader tried to downplay her role in efforts to overturn the 2020 election. A review of the record shows she was involved in some key episodes .

There are a lot of ways to listen to The Daily. Here’s how.

We aim to make transcripts available the next workday after an episode’s publication. You can find them at the top of the page.

The Daily is made by Rachel Quester, Lynsea Garrison, Clare Toeniskoetter, Paige Cowett, Michael Simon Johnson, Brad Fisher, Chris Wood, Jessica Cheung, Stella Tan, Alexandra Leigh Young, Lisa Chow, Eric Krupke, Marc Georges, Luke Vander Ploeg, M.J. Davis Lin, Dan Powell, Sydney Harper, Mike Benoist, Liz O. Baylen, Asthaa Chaturvedi, Rachelle Bonja, Diana Nguyen, Marion Lozano, Corey Schreppel, Rob Szypko, Elisheba Ittoop, Mooj Zadie, Patricia Willens, Rowan Niemisto, Jody Becker, Rikki Novetsky, John Ketchum, Nina Feldman, Will Reid, Carlos Prieto, Ben Calhoun, Susan Lee, Lexie Diao, Mary Wilson, Alex Stern, Dan Farrell, Sophia Lanman, Shannon Lin, Diane Wong, Devon Taylor, Alyssa Moxley, Summer Thomad, Olivia Natt, Daniel Ramirez and Brendan Klinkenberg.

Our theme music is by Jim Brunberg and Ben Landsverk of Wonderly. Special thanks to Sam Dolnick, Paula Szuchman, Lisa Tobin, Larissa Anderson, Julia Simon, Sofia Milan, Mahima Chablani, Elizabeth Davis-Moorer, Jeffrey Miranda, Renan Borelli, Maddy Masiello, Isabella Anderson and Nina Lassam.

Jim Rutenberg is a writer at large for The Times and The New York Times Magazine and writes most often about media and politics. More about Jim Rutenberg

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